Brian Jordon and Paul Allison

Transcript

Derek Smith:
Hello and welcome to Baylor Connections Conversation Series with the people shaping our future. Each week we go in depth with Baylor leaders, professors, and more. Discussing important topics in higher education, research, and student life. I'm Derek Smith, and today we are talking about new technologies and material science with Brian Jordon and Paul Allison. Doctors Jordon and Allison are leading researchers in material science fields who advance these new technologies serving needs for the armed forces industry and more in Baylor's Point-of-Need Innovations Center.
Both came to Baylor from the University of Alabama in 2022. Jordon serves as the Kenneth and Celia Carlyle Chair in Material Sciences in mechanical engineering. While Allison serves as professor of mechanical engineering and the Point-of-Need Innovations Center director. The Point-of-Need Innovations Center, as we'll call it PONI on the show, is an interdisciplinary research and development center in materials, manufacturing, engineering, design, business management and logistics, advancing projects for the Department of Defense, NASA, Department of Energy, and much more. A lot of exciting things going on in your world, in your labs. Brian, Paul, thanks so much for taking the time to join us today.

Brian Jordon:
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Derek.

Paul Allison:
Great to be here.

Derek Smith:
Great to have you here. So I imagine that right off the top we're delving into some topics that some of our listeners may be interested in but have little knowledge about. So let's start with, I hope, is that an easy question. Brian, I'll start with you. Someone at church or the doctor's office said, "So what do you do?" What would you tell them?

Brian Jordon:
Yeah, that's a great question and when I'm asked that question, my real quick answer is I'm a professor, but the real answer is more nuanced. And actually, I like to answer it more of what am I passion about? And our passions really are driven by our students. Myself and Paul, we've worked together for many years and we've research some really exciting technologies. But what we get real excited about is the opportunity to mentor graduate students and undergrads in research areas. So really training students, training the next generation of engineers and scientists in regards to research and development. And so as a professor, I get the opportunity to wear a bunch of different hats. And so I teach undergrad courses, I teach graduate courses, but what I spend a lot of my time on is interacting with the students, co-leading research programs with my colleague, Paul.
But really just walking with the students. Many of these students are giving up job opportunities when they leave undergrad. To stay in grad school, and grad school is not easy, it's very challenging. And so the opportunity to be with these students who are super excited about materials and material science and so to interact with them, to mentor them and watch them grow and mature as researchers, that's what we're super passionate about. And to do that at Baylor, we were at University of Alabama for 10 years or so, and there's opportunity to come to Baylor and to help grow material science to be on the forefront of developing a program specifically around materials has been super excited. It's what attracts us to the university and we really love and are excited of where we see research and materials going.

Derek Smith:
So material science, Paul, working with the students that Brian just described, you're doing that in the Point-of-Need Innovations Center. PONI, when people hear us saying that, that's what we're talking about. What is it? What is unique about it and what kind of work are you and your students doing there?

Paul Allison:
The Point-of-Need Innovations Center is really a way to get a large diverse group. So an interdisciplinary group of faculty, staff and students to solve really challenging problems. And what we're trying to do is solve problems that you're going to have an austere locations, so like space and space debris that we're all aware of. What can we do? It costs, I think, over $10,000 to get a kilogram of material up to space. And so if we can use what we have locally available so that this whole in situ resource utilization paradigm, so use what we have already on the moon or on orbit and in space, all this essentially junk, and we can turn that into new things. So we can turn it into new parts, new hubs for rovers. But to do that there, there's a lot of science and understanding of how do we process this material that's not a new feedstock, but essentially a recycled feedstock and how can we get the best performance out of that?
So that's really where the students come in, learning all these tools in their toolbox to process the materials. We can get the best properties, characterize the materials we can understand, do we have the fatigue life that it needs to be able to drive around the moon if we replace a hub on a rover that's now mixed with an upper stage or lunar landing craft mixed with some lunar regolith? And as we do this, the students have to be able to communicate effectively. So one of the things they're learning too is working with our externally funded sponsors, so NASA, DOD, DOE, and industry collaborators, is really combining these both technical and non-technical skills to solve these challenging problems at the location of use.

Derek Smith:
So you mentioned space, something breaks down in space, it's not let's take something up there. It's like let's use something up there to repair it. Or a little closer to home, but still difficult. Maybe the U.S. Army on a battlefield somewhere, a gear box or something related to a needed vehicle breaks down. You're not saying how do we get this from the U.S. to wherever we are in the world?

Paul Allison:
So yeah, that's another great point. So we actually have the same platform. It's called a hybrid additive manufacturing machine. And so it's actually the same platform that's on the USS Bataan. So our students are understanding all the perturbations you have from manufacturing with these systems where we can actually make a new part. And so you just need the computer-aided design file. You don't have to have all these spares that you may or may not use on a ship or at a forward operating base. And you're able to then print your part in titanium or stainless steel and even some other exotic alloys that we're developing. But then you can machine it into its final geometry.
And sometimes we want to make this as fast we can and it's just good enough manufacturing and we can transition that to the war fighter and then they can complete their mission. Otherwise, we're maybe processing a little slower and getting better properties and then it can last just like an OEM part. And so that's really where these students are getting trained and able to really transition this from the lab to the field with our DOD partners

Derek Smith:
Talking with Paul Allison and Brian Jordon. So Paul, I think most listeners would accept pretty readily that getting parts to space or distant parts around the world is hard. But to paint a picture of the impact of your work, could you describe what challenges there are getting to the point-of-need to help us all understand why, what you're doing, some of the problems that what you're doing solves?

Paul Allison:
So we really ran into some severe supply chain issues that were exacerbated during the COVID. And I think everybody felt that. I was working on my house and I couldn't get windows. There were certain things that the ports were not operating at full capacity. And so if we can use what we already have, so remanufacture or recycle or just take some broken battle damage components or if we have a natural disaster, it's hard to get new parts to those locations. So can we use what we have as damaged material and actually make new components? But to do that, we want to do it where we're making the best components we can.
And so that means really understanding how do we process material that has sort of a different history than if it just came from a casting house or getting forged or heat treated. And so that's really where these students are learning these skills to be able to recycle or upcycle these different feedstocks. And even some of it's mixing it with indigenous materials like sand. And so we've made some new components where you're mixing some battle damage metal with some sand that you have in an austere location and we're able to get a part that maybe isn't going to last 100,000 cycles, but it'll last 10,000 cycles. And we've correlated that to that performance to how we process material, that history, it's really important of that processing sequence.

Derek Smith:
Brian, you all have some great partners. As we mentioned, NASA, the Department of Defense, the military, different branches of the service. So the work you all do, why do they come to you for that? How have you all developed that reputation?

Brian Jordon:
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I'm humbled to be in a place where we are considered experts in particular research areas. So definitely there are a lot of folks out there that are knowledgeable in the same areas we are. I think one of the things that we are passionate about is not just doing science for the sake of science or doing research for the sake of research. We do like to keep the goal or the application in mind. And so a lot of the projects that we focus on are projects where the application is near term. So we're working on projects that maybe rolled out in a year or maybe rolled out in five years.
And so I think a lot of our customers, folks that come to us, they're coming to us because they've got a near term need. And so part of where we focus is really in that sweet spot between basic research and applied research. So focusing on areas where there's potentially a near term solution. Now granted we also work on basic science and things that might be several decades away, but we do have and develop a reputation I think for helping provide a solution that can be rolled out fairly soon.
And we enjoy that and I think the students enjoy it. So again, going back to the students, I think the students like to know that they're working on something that matters. And really for the student side, the success of the project really is dependent on the students. And so if you've got some really good students that are passionate and really care about what they're doing, the kind of progress you can make in the lab is amazing. And so I think coupled with that, I think our customers appreciate having students that are passionate about the research, working on their projects. And so we really try to put the students in situations where they take ownership for the projects. We like the students to interface directly with the sponsors, with the customers.
And I kind of joke, I was giving a talk a few years ago and I mentioned that the beginning that I was presenting my students' work, so please don't ask me any detailed questions, right? Because they're the ones that did it. Of course I'm joking. But really that, I mean the students really are in the lab and they become the experts. They become subject matter experts in this, and I think our customers like that.

Derek Smith:
Well, I'm going to ask you a little bit about friction stir additive manufacturing, a nascent technology you all are developing. What does it mean to you to really build up a workforce in this growing area you're kind of passed the baton to?

Brian Jordon:
Yeah, it's a great question. If I rewind in my mind what I was doing 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I wouldn't have imagined the research area I'm doing now. So it is interesting how someone involved in research ends up doing the research they're doing. And so how Paul and I fell into this area, we can talk about it another time, but it is pretty exciting to be working on a technology, especially with the growing interest in the area of friction-based additive manufacturing. It is a niche area, but it does solve a huge problem associated with materials that suffer from phase changes. So going from solid to liquid and back to solid, some materials don't like it and they don't perform well when they go through that phase change. And so in simple terms that the friction-based additive technology is like if we want to spread butter on toast, cold butter doesn't spread very well, warm butter spreads better, but melted butter, it's a bad situation.
So there is kind of a sweet spot for certain materials where that analogy of using sort of warm butter applies. And so we're fortunate enough to be in this space, one of the first folks in the country working on this technology, and so we have a head start and because of that, we've got some momentum behind us. And so some of the problems that our sponsors come to us asking us to help solve, we've already been thinking about it behind the scenes for several years. So it's exciting to be moving this technology because we do see and there is huge need for added manufacturing for certain materials. And like Paul was saying, with a point-of-need, I mean in austere areas, technologies where you have power restrictions or you need to avoid that phase change, this technology fits that.

Paul Allison:
If I can add on too, you think about space and so trying to manufacture things in space, if you process your material and you got this molten mill pool that may want to float around, that can be very, very challenging. And so that's really where NASA actually hired one of our first graduate students on this a decade ago. And so they were really interested in using this type of technology to process one, you can process materials that are traditionally unweldable and so you're not going to get the hot cracking or entrapped porosity using this technology. And so that's where we were really excited. And also I came out of the Army Research Lab and so really understanding how we could process scrap we'd have at machining centers at forward operating bases or really taking the battle damage components, we can directly recycle them with this technology.
And our goal is supporting the military, but also it's got applications to supporting local manufacturing shops. They generate a lot of scrap machine ships. If you don't have to go through the energy intensive process of remelting all that scrap down and turning it back into a new cast ingot, if we can just turn it into new components and try and get away from that two to three year lead time on some of these complex parts, but be able to manufacturing it in a month or a month and a half with forged properties. That's really what's exciting I think about this technology and how we can take it not only to space, but also to austere locations where the war fighter needs it, but then even to our local manufacturing stateside here.

Derek Smith:
So saving money, saving time, maybe stewarding scrap almost in a way, utilizing waste in a better way, some of the benefits. And I'm curious, so tell me if this question is poorly worded and then you can take it however you need to. So use the butter analogy. I think you're right, we can all picture in welding things are getting really hot and glowing or whatever, but the butter, obviously it's not right out of the fridge. You said it's not melted. What kind of state is it? Like when you put it in between the two pieces of bread and let it heat just a little bit or sit out, what are you going for?

Paul Allison:
No, that's a great question there. And so it's really more like you've left your butter out on the counter and so I grew up on a farm, we left our butter out on the counter, you cover it so the cats don't get it, but really then you can easily spread it on your toast. And so it's really much more of that malleable state. And so you can build it up layer by layer, and it's again, also really beneficial because as you try and build up a large component, it's able to handle those normal forces of the next layer getting added on top of it and then that later on top of that. And so where if it's molten, that's a lot of heat input that goes into changing the material from solid to liquid, and that also can be detrimental. We get a lot of residual stresses in our parts and those can make our components want to fail earlier. And so it's really controlling that heat input where our metal is more in that solid but malleable state where we can spread it around essentially.

Derek Smith:
It's friction that gets it there in some form?

Paul Allison:
Yeah. So we're using frictional heat generation to do that. We can add some other heating sources on, but really Brian was talking about that low power aspect. So something that you can do with your traditional machine shop setup, right? You don't need special gases or lasers that require more power. So we're able to just use frictional heat generation to really be able to generate the necessary temperature dependent flow stress of our material where we can spread around and build it up and we can build big things. So that's what's really exciting. We have, I think, the highest deposition rate that's possible. And so I think our students are able to pause over 50 pounds an hour of metal, and that's a lot. So you can make a big casting really quickly, replacement of a casting.

Brian Jordon:
Yeah. And if I can jump in, Paul's talking about big things, we can also do small things. So there's a lot of interest in repairs for sustainment. There's a lot of applications where for simple little parts or a little brackets, a $10,000 bracket. And life extension thing is something that aerospace industry is already doing. But some of these materials, traditionally you can't repair them, so you've got to take them off and replace it. Supply chain logistics, like Paul mentioned, can be a nightmare. So if you can repair these parts, the cost savings and the logistics of it are huge. And so this friction-based technology is some of the stuff that we're working on is super exciting. So we're able to restore repair components and do things that haven't been done before as it pertains to some of these unweldable metals. So it's pretty exciting.

Derek Smith:
Visiting with Brian Jordon and Paul Allison on the program. And we're heading into the final couple of minutes here, so I want to ask you to bring it home again. When I visited your lab, I looked up and I saw flags for the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, Space Force. And gathered from talking to you all, your students are your real passion, but it's also solving problems for people who have needs in these austere locations. I guess what do those flags, Paul, remind you all of in the work that you're doing?

Paul Allison:
Yeah, so those flags are really our sponsors. So they're the ones funding this work, the ones who have a requirement that we're solving, and not just solving but delivering solutions on who's talking to some of our other DOD collaborators. And really everybody has really great ideas that could get funded, but the challenge is the funding agencies generally, they're trying to solve problems that are the war fighters are having right now, the design engineers are having right now. And so that's where we're really trying to deliver on the requirements they need. And some of that's minimizing the challenges of a two to three year long lead time on new parts. If we can figure out ways to do that quickly and efficiently with lower power and less waste generated, that's really what drives us and allows us to deliver to the Army, the Air Force, the Navy, the Marine Corps. And so that's where we're really excited about getting those people, those individuals, those researchers, those war fighters to come visit us and see how we're actually solving these problems and transitioning from the lab to the field where they need it.

Derek Smith:
Final question now, Brian, you glossed over this, but you all made a big decision to come to Baylor a couple years ago with Illuminate and the strategic plan leading into the area material science growing. So I just want to make sure you all had a good thing going at Alabama. So you all feeling you're okay you jumped in the transfer portal, you were ahead of the game a little bit in that. You all still feel good about that decision, right?

Brian Jordon:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think what attracted us to Baylor was the opportunity to help grow something, to be on the ground level of something new and exciting. And Baylor's lived up to their side of the bargain. And so we're still excited about where we see material science going at Baylor and moving's always tough. It's tough on the family, it's tough on the students. We brought students, so a lot of students took a leap of faith and followed us here, and so there was a lot of transition. It's tough. But once you get past the other side, I think we're in a really good place. We've got some momentum.
I think doing research and running a research lab and having students, having projects, having momentum is really good. Momentum allows you to make a lot of good progress without the desperate pressure that can, I think, negatively affect progress. And so it gives you the opportunity to make some strategic decisions where to focus time, where to spend resources. So we've got momentum and culture is important. So in a research lab, growing culture, I think what we had at Alabama that was good was culture.
Our interaction with our students, our expectations of the lab. We had developed a reputation students were coming to us. And so we knew we were giving that up by leaving, but we hoped that we could regrow that at here at Baylor. And so I think we're getting there. I think we're getting to the point where we feel comfortable in terms of getting our lab up. So yeah, no regrets definitely. It was a tough decision, but I think this was definitely where the Lord was leading us, and so I'm excited to see what the next few years brings.

Derek Smith:
Absolutely. We're glad to have you both here. Well, Brian, Paul, thanks so much for your time. We're excited what to see what's ahead in the PONI lab with you and your students. We'll have to talk to you again in one of these days.

Paul Allison:
Thank you, Derek.

Brian Jordon:
Thanks, Derek.

Derek Smith:
Great to have you both here. Brian Jordon, the Kenneth and Celia Carlyle Chair in Material Science, and Paul Allison, professor of mechanical engineering and Point-of-Need Innovations Center director, our guests today on Baylor Connections. I'm Derek Smith. Reminder, you can hear this in other programs online, baylor.edu/connections. You can subscribe on iTunes. Thanks for joining us here on Baylor Connections.