Leslie Hahner and Kevin Villegas

Transcript

Derek Smith:
Hello. And welcome to Baylor Connections. It's a conversation series with the people shaping our future. Each week we go in depth with Baylor leaders, professors, and we're discussing important topics in higher education, research and student life. I'm Derek Smith, and today we are discussing civil discourse. Baylor University's focus on civil discourse is amplified in election years. The university offers programming and resources to prepare and encourage students to engage with others in the spirit of respect and understanding, commensurate with the call to love our neighbor. Today we visit with two Baylor faculty whose scholarship and engagement helps bridge different backgrounds or opinions as we visit with Dr. Leslie Hahner and Dr. Kevin Villegas. Dr. Leslie Hahner serves as Professor of Communication at Baylor with an expertise in the ways rhetoric shapes public culture, moves audiences, and forms public sensibilities. Dr. Hahner has published her research in numerous journals and is the author of To Become an American: Immigrants and Americanization Campaigns of the Early 20th Century.
She teaches courses from advanced public speaking to rhetoric and contemporary culture. Dr. Kevin Villegas serves as Dean of Intercultural Engagement and Division of Student life Initiatives in Baylor's student life. In this role, Dr. Villegas is responsible for leading a comprehensive approach to empower all students and Division of Student Life staff in the creation of more vibrant, inclusive, and supportive campus environment as an expression of the Baylor University mission. So you both have two very different roles, but I'm going to guess a lot of similar topics at some point or another come across your desk or that you find yourselves pondering. Dr. Hahner, Dr. Villegas, thanks so much for joining us today.

Leslie Hahner:
Happy to be here.

Kevin Villegas:
Pleasure to be here. It's great to have you here. And this may be a little bit new because we've had multiple guests on at the same time before, but you may be the first two who don't really interact on a day-to-day basis in terms of working in the same division or collaborating on a research report, so this will be fun. A little new for both of you, is that correct?

Leslie Hahner:
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk.

Kevin Villegas:
Same.

Derek Smith:
Well, it's great to have you both here, and it's really always interesting to talk to faculty and administration from different areas. Dr. Hahner, I'll start with you. How meaningful is it for you on a topic like civil discourse to be able to pick the brains, interact, collaborate with people of different disciplines?

Leslie Hahner:
It's so meaningful. Baylor is such a special place because I like to say that we have an armada of brilliance among our faculty and staff. We are so privileged to be able to engage across different areas of the university to talk about a topic that is so important to today's world, especially during an election year. Civil discourse is important to our campus, and it's so meaningful to be able to discuss this with peers.

Kevin Villegas:
Yeah, I agree. I think it's really important to work across our organizational structure for some shared outcomes, and we really want the Baylor experience, particularly for our students, to be a transformative one. And I think teaching our students and ourselves how to listen better, how to share our stories, how to navigate tension, those are all things our community will be better off as a result of engaging in those things across our organization.

Derek Smith:
Dr. Villegas, I'll start with you on this question. So fill in the blank. An election year on a college campus is, what? What are the challenges, opportunities presented?

Kevin Villegas:
I think it's a learning opportunity, certainly not without challenge though. I think the challenge is what creates a lot of opportunity for development and growth for synthesizing some new things, especially in a contentious election year, which I think a lot of people are expecting this to be, it gives us an opportunity to lean into our mission to actually prepare students to be worldwide leaders and servants in a complex and diverse, and often polarized context. And so if we are not teaching our students how to do that now while they're here, then they're going to learn probably a lot through failure when they leave here, so why not do it in this nurturing environment? So it offers us an opportunity to actually engage in some rich learning both in the classroom and outside of the classroom, and to role model for students how we can actually engage in deep difference and deep disagreement together in a way that upholds the value of the other, so I really do think it gives Baylor an opportunity to role model for the world how this could be done.

Leslie Hahner:
I would say the finishing blank in the sentence for me would be electric. Most of my students, this is their first election and they are so excited to participate in the political process, and to truly become involved with local, state and national elections. Their excitement is palpable in that they're ready to root for their candidate. In fact, one of my good friends and colleagues, Ashley Hank says, "Today, political party membership is akin to fandom," that we want to root for our main candidate. And so in those moments with my Communication students, I try and get them to think about, "Okay, you can love this candidate, you can really want them to be elected," but when we get into the area where we start worshiping that person as a fan, that might be a moment to reflect on our behavior and ensure that we are engaging in the democratic process with kindness, with egalitarianism, and without a sense of ideological commitment to a political candidate.

Derek Smith:
We're visiting with Dr. Kevin Villegas and Dr. Leslie Hahner. And as we talk about civil discourse, we could probably take up almost a whole show defining it, but how would you define that? Dr. Hahner, I'll start with you. And we're talking about that, what does that mean to you?

Leslie Hahner:
Civil discourse holds a very special place in functioning democracies. From ancient times civil discourse is described as how people come together to deliberate on the best that a community can do to prosper. Some people like to think about civil discourse as mere politeness, but nothing could be further from the truth even in ancient times. The style is not as important as the substance as how we engage. And yes, civility asks us to speak with decorum, yet it's a much older concept. Civil discourse upholds several key values that we need to be seeking out. Deliberation and civil discourse needs to include mutual respect, which we really need to try and listen to one another, especially when we disagree. Civil discourse must be truthful, which means it refrains from false or bombastic claims, and civil discourse also means that speakers take responsibility for what they say and how that message impacts a community.
Ultimately, civil discourse is to be community focus, such as the goal is not to win, but to better the community. And it's crucial for college students and college campuses to be sites where these values can be cultivated and exercised. College campuses are so unique in that classrooms or speaker series offer a kind of modern agora where civil discourse can be modeled. Coincidentally, a campus that seeks strong civil discourse typically offers a world-class education in leadership deliberation and community building, and Baylor offers just that.

Kevin Villegas:
Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about the definition of civil discourse in our Baylor context because I think it's helpful that when we say civil discourse at Baylor, we have a shared understanding of what do we mean by that? And so one of the ways that I see at Baylor is the practice of relationally deliberating on matters of significant concern. So relationships, that's really important. We talk about community here at Baylor a lot, so it's important that we engage in civil discourse in a relational way. And so I think we should do it, the aim should be to expand our knowledge, to promote mutual understanding.
And so the way that we've been doing it in the co-curriculum here is through a bridge building mindset. Just seeking to build bridges of understanding more than anything, rather than try to debate or argue someone into your point of view. So bridge building work that's done to intentionally bring people together from diverse identities, divergent ideologies, so that we can engage in civil discourse in ways, much like Leslie mentioned, ways that are centered on dignity, openness and honesty, demonstrating respect and value for others. Also, we can foster interdependent relationships with in pursuit of the common good.

Derek Smith:
I'm curious for either one of you, when you're talking to your students, I don't know how much what you described is always modeled in popular culture and popular media. When you talk to a-19-year-old in any setting, does this feel new to them? Is it like, "Oh, this is different," or do they push back? What does that look like for either one of you?

Kevin Villegas:
Sure. Well, we got a grant last year, myself and a professor in the Baylor Interdisciplinary core to do some Bridging the Gap training. So it's a particular curriculum and it's called Bridging the Gap. And again, it is to build bridges of understanding, and it's really skill-based. So it starts off with teaching students how to listen. And I will never forget after the first session we did on listening last spring with students who were going through this curriculum, one of the students shared, and it was almost like they were speaking for their whole generation. I know they were not.
But they said, "You know what? No one's ever taught us how to listen," and it really stuck with me. And I really thought about that and I was like, "No one really ever taught me how to listen either." And so yes, I don't think it's role modeled often well in broader society because we're just talking past one another. It's just interrupted monologue. We're not really listening to the other person's perspective in a way that we're trying to understand. We're usually listening so we can take what they're saying and turn it, and feed our own argument somehow. And so I really think teaching students how to listen is a skill that we can all benefit from. And so this is how it started in, or at least we're starting with the skills with our students. And so that was something significant, I recall from last semester.

Derek Smith:
A new tool in the toolbox.

Leslie Hahner:
Yes. And as a Communication professor, I do want to add that those are skills we do teach in the Communication Department, and I love being in the Communication Department because Kevin's experience mirrors my own that students are ready to have those conversations in a-

Kevin Villegas:
Absolutely.

Leslie Hahner:
... respectful and open environment.

Derek Smith:
Well, Dr. Hahner, let me ask you a little bit about some of that work in your classes. In the Department of Communication, I should proudly mention that I'm a Department of Communication grad here at Baylor. I've always got to work that in, but that idea of rhetoric and how it shapes public culture, our students are shaped by that. They'll in turn shape others. What does that look like in terms of the work you do with your students as you're studying this together?

Leslie Hahner:
Yeah. So my second book was published in 2019, and it was entitled Make America Meme Again, and that was a study of political memes and how they shape public sensibilities, how they shape voting patterns. Now, I've translated that work into the classroom where I'm walking students through how visual communication works in terms of what images they see and how that might impact them, but I'm also showing them the depth of disinformation that they are surrounded by, that the memes or the content that they're engaging with daily is truly targeting them to think and act in particular ways.
And before they engage in those online spaces, the class goals that I have are to help students recognize the ways that they've been targeted, how they can wade through information to come up with a learned opinion, and how to do that in a compelling way. And so my research into memes and public culture has really benefited Baylor students who come to my class ready to try and understand how even memes can be used as a form of civil discourse, and how they can be participants in these conversations that further the conversation.

Derek Smith:
There's always noise in the world. Noises in things that fight for our mind space. How noisy is the world that our students, what you just described, do they have to work even harder than past generations to fight through that?

Leslie Hahner:
Yes, absolutely. They have a tiny computer with them all of the time that is extremely addictive. They have content that they're constantly engaging with. They also might be prone to look at things that maybe are not as healthy for them politically speaking. So it's important that those students have the opportunity to ask really open-ended questions, and they do have a much tougher time because they have so much more messages coming at them on a day-to-day basis.

Derek Smith:
Dr. Hahner, constructively applying some of these lessons, what are some ways we can critically think about our own speech and our own consumption as you just talked about, and applying that in a way that builds bridges even whether there's disagreement?

Leslie Hahner:
Yeah. So my work on political memes has taken me to work for a number of non-profits, and I've landed a grant to study how we can encourage people to create positive, socially productive content for social media, as well as how we engage in conversations with one another. What I learned is that these messages can be really powerful, and that even if we post something, if it's positive, if it's kind, if it's necessary, if we're really trying to contribute positively to public discourse, our students and us have a great deal of opportunity to shape what noise the world hears, and switching that message from students to, "You are in danger and need to be fearful of everything too." "No, you can create content for social media or conversations in your personal life that help us to move towards actual civil discourse."

Derek Smith:
This is Baylor Connections. We are visiting with Dr. Leslie Hahner, Professor of Communications, and Dr. Kevin Villegas, Dean of Intercultural Engagement and Division of Student Life Initiatives. Well, Dr. Villegas, you already gave us a taste of this when you talked about bridging the gap and the work you're doing there, you engage with students in a number of ways. First of, broadly, how would you describe what that looks like in your role and what opportunities that provides you as it relates to this topic?

Kevin Villegas:
Yeah. Well, it's really about developing a student's intercultural maturity, and that is the ability to accept challenges from, and at the same time build interdependent relationships with different people from other backgrounds. And so if you think of that definition of intercultural maturity, this work of civil discourse fits well with that. We're trying to engage across lines of difference, all kinds of difference. So generally speaking, that's the kind of work that I do is trying to help students curate an environment where students can be with people who are very different than themselves so that they can actually learn from one another, right? When our students go on after they graduate from here where they're undergrad or graduate, they're not going to be, by and large, they're not going to be working and serving, and leading and serving in monocultural and monoreligious environments. They're going to be in very diverse complex environments, and so it's missional for us to actually equip our students to do this.
So generally speaking, that's what I'm doing with students, and that takes lots of different forms, workshops, trainings, story sharing events, skill building around things like civil discourse, so it looks very different. Some of it it's just programming around culture just to learn, celebrate, honor other cultures, there's value in that. So we're really, this semester and next semester, also trying to invest more heavily in story sharing because I do believe hearing people's lived experiences often has a way of moving the needle on your heart and things, creating some empathy, and I think the world needs more empathy.

Derek Smith:
Absolutely. Bridging the gap, I am curious, what are some moments, whether it's in that or at any of the work that you just described, the moments that mean the most to you, and what have you learned about the conditions in which understanding can flourish even [inaudible 00:16:15] disagreement?

Kevin Villegas:
Yeah. Well, I think going back to something Leslie shared, our students are wanting this. They're really just need some of the skills and some of the encouragement in order to do this. And so once we taught our students how to listen, once we taught them how to tap into their stories and share from their personal experience, once we taught them how to put their finger on their emotions as they're navigating tension in a conversation, then the more they practice that, the more confident they feel to actually engage in difference.
And so from this past semester when we trained 32 Bridge Building Fellows in this Bridging the Gap curriculum, it was amazing that after we had these formal practice events where we were bridging across a socially compelling issue where there were some division, after we were done, the students would say, "Oh, that went by so quickly," and they wanted to keep talking. So I would actually be cleaning up, getting things put away, and I'd be walking past students carrying on the conversation with someone who thought the polar opposite from them on an issue, and then deciding to go get coffee afterwards, and they ended up sharing that they talked for another three hours.

Derek Smith:
That's awesome.

Kevin Villegas:
And so if we just equip our students and practice it ourselves, and role model it ourselves, we can actually begin to build bridges of understanding. That doesn't mean we have to let go or compromise our own values or beliefs. In fact, we bring those into those conversations, but we also try to understand the other person's values, perspectives, beliefs, and then we try to synthesize something forward.

Leslie Hahner:
I think Kevin's really smart here in terms of what you've said is actually very true. The students are dying for spaces to have these conversations. I mentioned that I teach a class that walks students through how social media influences them. And last time I taught this class, students admitted to me at the midpoint of semester that they didn't believe Helen Keller was real. And that gave me an opportunity to have a learning conversation, and I was so thankful that those students felt comfortable talking about what they had believed because of social media presence. And they were grateful that someone like a Baylor professor would be happy to engage with them and help them learn the skills to understand how they had been shaped by those messages, and how they can connect to one another more deeply by not falling prey to disinformation and negative messages.

Derek Smith:
What would you tell people each of you, any tip or two on a social media, and not only for these next few months, but really in general.

Leslie Hahner:
I typically tell students to ask three questions that have been erroneously attributed to Socrates, Winston Churchill, and a few others. But the three questions are, is it kind, is it necessary? Is it important? If they're trying to create social media content or they're trying to speak with their friends, what types of message are you putting forward? In the class that I teach, the second half of that class is really teaching students the values of creating messages that can shape our public discourse, that if we fall prey to what the world wants us to see, that we will continue to only see those messages that want to drive us further from our values. But if we bring our values into public discourse and we use our gifts to create messages that are strong, powerful, and community building, we can really change the world with how we relate to one another.

Kevin Villegas:
Yeah, agreed. Some things I would say about social media is I think it's not the most ideal way to engage in debate or discourse around a socially compelling issue. That is best done relationally with sitting across from someone, so I think that's really important. It's not to say there isn't a time or place for that, but I don't think that really, and there's research that demonstrates that doesn't really change people's minds. So if you're out to change people's minds, you're actually not really doing that by posting an argument or a rebuttal to something, or something that you believe in. It really because of how the algorithms work, you're just actually creating more polarization, likely.

Derek Smith:
Baylor, as a Christian university in particular, why is it important for us to model this amidst disagreement and hopefully more shared, if not complete agreement, just fellowship together?

Kevin Villegas:
Yeah. Well, I think it's part of the great commandment to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourself. To engage with people who think differently than us is really a part of being a peacemaker. And when Jesus says, in the Sermon on the Mount, "Blessed are the peacemakers," not blessed are the sarcastic vitriolic trolls who use their wit to make these arguments and out debate someone else. It's blessed are the peacemakers, and I think people will, Jesus says, "They'll know you're my disciples by the love you have for one another," so we ought to be demonstrating love, care, concern, upholding the dignity of others when we engage in a deep difference with someone else. And so again, as a Christian university, we should be role modeling for this. All of these conversations should look very differently at a place like Baylor than at other places.

Leslie Hahner:
Yeah, I firmly agree. Because of the values that Baylor holds, Baylor is able to uniquely offer spaces of deliberation and conversation that other universities don't currently have. It shows that the institution has a great deal of effort in trying to have students, faculty and staff relate across a number of areas of difference as well as similarity. I think Baylor also has a really unique opportunity. I tell my students in my classes all the time, that the world needs Baylor, and the world needs Baylor specifically on this topic because our students are heavily online. They're posting content all of the time. We know that the types of content they're engaging in are probably teaching them some negative things like Helen keller didn't exist, and so offering the space for students to engage and to do so in a Christian context where those values are emphasized, just as Kevin pointed out, really offers Baylor a unique position to build community and create a site of civil discourse.

Derek Smith:
Well, those are really great thoughts. Glad we can share, and this isn't really the place to end, but I will say, I know there's someone listening right now who's like, "What people think Helen Keller didn't exist?" Google it, right?

Leslie Hahner:
Helen Keller exists.

Derek Smith:
She exists. That was a thing on the internet. Well, thank you both for taking the time to share with us today.

Leslie Hahner:
Thank you.

Kevin Villegas:
Thank you.

Derek Smith:
Dr. Leslie Hahner, Professor of Communication, and Dr. Kevin Villegas, Dean of Intercultural Engagement and Division of Student Life Initiatives, our guests today on Baylor Connections. I'm Derek Smith. A reminder, you can hear these and other programs online, baylor.edu/connections, and you can subscribe to the program on iTunes. Thanks for joining us here on Baylor Connections.