Jeremy Counseller

Transcript

Derek Smith:
Hello and welcome to Baylor Connections, a conversation series with the people shaping our future. Each week we go in depth with Baylor leaders, professors, and more, discussing important topics in higher education, research and student life. I'm Derek Smith, and today we are talking about the Baylor Law School with incoming Dean, Jeremy Counseller. He's been on the faculty for many years and is assuming the role of Dean this July. A Baylor Law graduate and long-time Baylor Law faculty member, and Jeremy Counseller will assume that role of the nationally ranked Baylor Law School. Recognized as an outstanding teacher, author and lawyer, Counseller has served on the law school faculty since 2003 and will continue to hold his current position, the Abner V. McCall Chair of Evidence Law while serving as Dean. Baylor Law School was formally organized just 12 years after the university's founding and has built a national reputation for excellence. Among its accolades, the law school is ranked third in advocacy by US News and World Report, number one in PreLaw Magazine's best schools for practical training, number six in the nation for job placement and consistently boasts one of the highest bar passage rates in America. A lot of exciting things going on in Baylor Law over the years and certainly at this time, and Jeremy, congratulations on your new role as Dean starting in July, and thanks for joining us today.

Jeremy Counseller:
Thank you, Derek. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here.

Derek Smith:
Well, it's wonderful to have you here. And I'm going to start off with a question that hopefully is a fun one. Maybe people have commented on this over the years. Your last name, Counseller, fits well with your legal profession. How long has that been something you've been aware of and how has that played out in your life?

Jeremy Counseller:
Well, I've been aware of it for quite a long time, certainly since I was a kid. When I was a little kid, I was a person who was never afraid to sort of debate issues even with adults. And my parents would sort of shush me by saying, "Hey, one day you can be a lawyer, but for now you keep quiet." And that dynamic started when I was very young, but when I was about, I don't know, 10 or 11, and I actually said to my parents, I said, I think I might want to be a lawyer. And I remember my dad said, "You know, our last name is another word for lawyer." And I think as a little kid I thought, well then it's destiny. It's destiny. And it's the only career I ever really seriously considered. Now, my wife would tell you that there was a time when I was in law school and things were hard that I told her, maybe I'll go get my PhD in history because I'm a big history buff too. But that was just sort of a response to the stresses of law school. But other than that, I've always wanted to be a lawyer, always knew I wanted to be a lawyer.

Derek Smith:
So no real wavering. And of course, as you mentioned, those experiences in law school, that was at Baylor.

Jeremy Counseller:
That's right. That's right. I am a proud Baylor graduate and a proud Baylor lawyer. And I think that's one of the things that just makes me feel so privileged and humbled to be assuming this role on July 1st.

Derek Smith:
Well, we mentioned a few accolades at the top of the show because you're humbled to be in this role, but I know you're very proud of the work that your colleagues and your students are doing. So I'm curious, if you're visiting with colleagues from other institutions, I don't know if you ever start bragging on your own institutions one up in each other, but if you do, what are some of the things you tell people about what makes Baylor special?

Jeremy Counseller:
Well, one of the things that I brag about and that I'm so proud of, and this is part of Brad Toben's legacy, it's the product of the hard work of faculty staff at the law school, is that I can go to the newest member of our staff or I can go to the most senior member of our faculty and I can say, what's the number one thing at Baylor Law School? And every one of them will say some version of, "It's the students." And I think that priority is what leads to those accolades that you mentioned at the top. Bar passage rate, high job placement, and others. We prepare students for the practice of law for the legal profession. I think we do that as well or better than any law school in the country, and we're not only committed to continue to do that, but to find ways to better prepare students for the legal profession. Once we've got that, it opens up a whole world of possibilities in terms of finding other areas of growth for the law school.

Derek Smith:
So that's the foundation. And I think when you're having success and when graduates are having success, it all just builds on each other. I don't know if it's a chicken and egg cycle exactly, but when you talk about the students, the students that Baylor Law attracts, you brag on them. What is it about them? What kind of students does Baylor Law attract?

Jeremy Counseller:
Well, we attract very academically, well credentialed students. We attract an increasingly diverse student body, and that's all to the good. I think one of the things that I'm so very proud of about our students, we have been called by a prominent legal publication, the Marine Corps of law schools. And I don't know that they meant that as a compliment when they said it, but we took it as a compliment. And we don't hide that fact from students. I mean, they know that there are easier ways to getting a law degree than to go Baylor law school, and yet they choose to come here. And I think that says something about their character. I think that says something about their maturity. And I think it is a recognition of the challenges they will face as lawyers, and they want to be prepared for them. And that's something that makes me really proud of our students. I've taught first year, first quarter law students for over 20 years. So I see them on their first day in the law school, and they are eager, they are smart. If you tell them, this is what I need you to do, they will do their best to do it. And so that is something that I get to see firsthand and it's just a tremendous privilege.

Derek Smith:
Visiting with Jeremy Counseller, incoming Dean of the Baylor Law School. And so July 1, so we're approaching the day that you formally take over the role, but you've been preparing for it for a long time on the faculty for 20 years as a Baylor law student yourself. How have those dual experiences, both a student and a professor in Baylor Law, helped to prepare you for this role?

Jeremy Counseller:
Well, I think I know the institution well. When we say an institution, we're really referring to people. And I know the people well, I know the faculty, I know the staff, I know the students. And I think that's an advantage because you know what the institution's strengths are. And I think I also have a good sense of what the areas for growth are as well. And so I think it's an advantage. One thing, some of the people on the faculty were actually my teachers in law school. And I think sometimes that might seem a little awkward for people, but the people who have been my teachers and mentors for 25 years have been just tremendously supportive of me through this process. And one of the great things about our faculty, we do have a very collegial faculty. It's not to say that we always agree on things, but we do all share the idea that we want to make Baylor Law School even better than it is. And that's a healthy thing to unify around.

Derek Smith:
Visiting with Jeremy Counseller here on Baylor Connections and Jeremy, there's that faith mission as well that's part of the entire institution and Baylor law. We talk about that a lot throughout the institution, but take us inside that at Baylor Law, that Faith Foundation, what that looks like?

Jeremy Counseller:
One of the things that we say to students all the time is, as a lawyer, your job is to serve, yes, serve your clients, but also serve your community. We connect that explicitly to our faith mission from the time students arrive at new student orientation to the time they across the stage at commencement. One of the messages that I've shared with classes before is, it's a C.S. Lewis quote, I'll probably not get the quote exactly right, but he says, "If you aim at heaven, you'll get the earth thrown in for good measure. If you aim at the Earth, you won't get either." And we have a lot of moments in the process of our program of education where we remind them of those things. Starting in the fall, we're going to do some new things around our faith mission. We are going to have a monthly devotional, in addition to the weekly one that the students already do.
We'll have a monthly one that I will start by leading, and then we'll have other faculty and staff lead that. Another thing that we're going to do is have an invitation to worship at least twice a year, to try to connect students to a faith community that may be attractive to them. So it'll be faculty and staff inviting students to worship at their particular faith communities. One of the things that I think all of our faculty and staff would say is, that we all lean on our faith in God and prayer to get through the trials and tribulations of being a lawyer. And here we are, we prepare students for the practice of law. I think we would not be doing that as well if we don't at least give students the opportunity to connect with their faith while they're in law school.
We throw so many different balls at students in law school and they've got to try to keep them all in the air. And I worry that one of the ones they put down is faith. That they sort of set it aside, and we want to make sure that we at least give them the opportunity to maintain that connection because it's going to be important for them to do that out in the practice of law, that they maintain the things that help them find meaning and purpose in their work and in their vocation. So that's something that we're going to emphasize more with those programs I mentioned to you that are starting in the fall.

Derek Smith:
Very cool. This is Baylor Connections. We are visiting with Jeremy Counseller, taking over the role as Dean of the Baylor Law School on July 1st, continuing to serve as the Abner V. McCall Chair in Evidence Law in the Baylor Law School. Jeremy, I want to get to know you a little bit better, but first before we do, I want to ask you about someone we've had on this program before, and that is Brad Toben, who spent 31 years as Dean of the Baylor Law School. I know he's been a colleague to you for a long time. Boy, that's quite a standard that he set. What does it mean to you to get to follow in his footsteps and what's it been like leaning on him as you move into this role?

Jeremy Counseller:
I'll tell you, it's humbling because when I went to Baylor Law School, Brad Toben was the Dean, and he's been the Dean for my entire time being on the faculty, say it for the last... most of this past year. Brad is a dear friend of mine, I mean, just a dear friend of mine. His whole family is friends and I consider the Toben's sort of part of our extended family. I have sought advice from Brad over the last 20 years on all manner of things from just really personal struggles to scholarship, teaching. What kind of dog should I get? He knows dogs. And he's still on the faculty, and I will continue to seek his advice. So it's both humbling, but also I think helpful to have that relationship with him. And it's help I definitely intend to use as needed.

Derek Smith:
Well, let's ask about your time as a Baylor student. Now, you told us a little bit about the roots of your law career. So you did undergrad at SFA, then came to Baylor for your MBA and your JD. So, what was it that attracted you to Baylor out of all the options out there that you had in front of you?

Jeremy Counseller:
Well, I had a wonderful pre-law advisor at SFA. His name is Dr. Donald Gregory, and he asked me, "Do you know what kind of lawyer you want to be or where in the country you would want to go to law school?" And I said, I want to be a trial lawyer and I don't want to leave Texas. And I am completely unfamiliar with law schools at this point. And he said, "Well, if you want to be a trial lawyer and you want to be in Texas, you need to go to Baylor Law School." Baylor Law School is the only law school I applied to. I came to Baylor and I actually started at the business school before I had been admitted at Baylor Law School, which probably wasn't the smartest thing in the world to do, but I was at the business school and that was my MBA at the Baylor Business School, was fantastic.
I learned a lot because I was an english and history major. I didn't know anything about accounting, marketing, finance or economics. And that education really helped me early on in my legal career because I sort of knew something about the language of business and legal problems occur in a context, right? And often it's businesses who are struggling with legal issues. So getting that education was helpful, and I think it helped me in law school as well to be working on that MBA simultaneously. So that was the joint MBA, JD degree that ultimately I pursued.

Derek Smith:
So you're a busy guy at that time in your life, as are most law students as you're pursuing the joint degree. Let's think about memories. Favorite and maybe not so favorite, although probably the not so favorite ones paid off in some ways. What are your favorite memories of Baylor Law School?

Jeremy Counseller:
I have a lot of great memories of being a student at Baylor Law School, just the friendships you make. When I was a third year law student, Louis Muldrow, who was my practice court professor, he received the Baylor Lawyer of the Year award, which is sort of the highest honor we bestow upon our alumni and friends. And by tradition, the Baylor Lawyer of the Year award ceremony is a gentle roast of the recipient. And he asked me, a student, a current student of his, to speak at his roast. And so here I am, I'm standing at a podium. I'm 24 years old, I'm standing at a podium in front of 1500 people. He is sitting in front of me at a table with his family, and I'm supposed to poke a little fun at him. And so I tell the audience this story about how in class a student had not prepared up to his standards, and Muldrow's standards were very difficult to meet, and he was tough. And so in response to finding out that the student wasn't prepared, Muldrow paraphrased scripture and quoted or paraphrased a verse from Proverbs. And Muldrow said, "Hard is the way of the transgressor." And so I said this to the audience. Then I told them that this was the first time Professor Muldrow had ever quoted scripture since tempting Jesus in the desert 2000 years ago.
Well, here I am 24 years old, and I've just called my practice court professor the devil, and I was not sure what his reaction would be. So I looked up from my notes and I looked down at him at his table with his family, worried that he's going to be angry. He is laughing. He has his hands in the air. He is basking in the glow of being called the devil. That's one of my favorite memories.

Derek Smith:
That's a great memory. That's pressure right there that you were facing. I could feel that.

Jeremy Counseller:
Absolutely. Well, and if he hadn't liked it, I would've been called on the following Monday in his class and had to answer all sorts of questions. He would have returned fire had he not enjoyed that joke, for sure.

Derek Smith:
Well, that's good. That's good. It played. Well Jeremy, what about, I'll say least favorite memories or the memories that in the moments you were considering a history, pursuing a history degree?

Jeremy Counseller:
Well, I'll tell a story about another professor. Will Underwood, who's now the president at Mercer University. He was my civil procedure professor. So this is a course I took in my first quarter of law school. He called on me every day, so I have to stand up and answer his questions every day. I think he may have given me a little bit of a break, maybe one day a week. And he would not hesitate, he's a fantastic teacher, but he would not hesitate to tell you that you were wrong. And I remember on one occasion he told me, "You are precisely wrong." And I had never heard the phrase precisely wrong. And I thought, well, is that better or worse than being regular wrong? Is there some positive in being in the precision of my wrongness? And to this day, I don't know really what he meant by that. Now that I teach the very course that he taught when he was asking me all those questions, I think he was just having fun. It's just a way to tell a student, no, that's not quite right, and he was having fun. But when you're a law student, you take everything maybe bigger than it should be, more significant than it should be. But that is a memory that I actually look back on very fondly.

Derek Smith:
Visited with Jeremy Counseller on Baylor Connections. And we've talked about you're moving into the new role as Dean of the Baylor Law School, July 1. What are those early weeks going to look like for you? What's on your agenda as you settle in?

Jeremy Counseller:
How much time do you have Derek? It's going to be busy. I think one of the things that is a focus is to spend the next three months going out on the road and meeting face-to-face with as many alumni and friends as I can. Now that's already started, but it's going to pick up pace significantly. Baylor Law School is not the building. It's not just the students, the faculty and the staff. It's the whole institution, and that certainly includes our alumni and friends. So I want to get out there and meet as many as I can, and hear their perspectives and hear their thoughts on things. We have already, we're in the early stages of beginning our strategic plan that's in alignment with the university's strategic plan. Early stages yet, but I'm looking forward to that work continuing over the next several months. Very excited about the opportunities that presents for the law school.

Derek Smith:
So plenty to work on. And I'm curious if you get this question, the kind of the vision question. Is that a question you get a lot? And how would you describe that?

Jeremy Counseller:
No, I've never heard that question. No, I'm kidding. Yeah, I get that all the time, "What's your vision?" And I'm a little bit uncomfortable with it only for this reason. I think it's a helpful question, but if it's my vision, it's going to remain a vision. It will never become a reality. What we have to do is thinking about the institution broadly, we have to come to a shared vision. I think only a shared vision will become reality. In terms of finding that shared vision, I certainly have thoughts and I'm going to let them be known, but I think the shared vision, the essence of the shared vision, I see it every day when I walk into law school from the parking lot. We have inscribed on the walls of the law school, the exterior wall, Micah 6:8, "What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God."
And I think it's a really interesting thing to think about, what does it mean for a law school to do justice? Part of that is how we prepare our students to go out and participate by serving clients and being part of the civil and criminal justice systems as lawyers. I think that's part of it, and we've got to continue to do that. But we can also improve the quality of justice through our scholarship. The writing I've done is teaching, but it's just teaching a different audience, maybe teaching lawyers or teaching judges. And I think we can do justice better, even better, if we continue to connect the need to serve and provide opportunities to serve to our faith mission. And so I think therein lies our vision. It's in that essence that is chiseled into the wall of the law school.

Derek Smith:
Well, that's wonderful. And no telling where all that could take you in Baylor Law School in the years ahead. Very excited. Well Jeremy, thanks so much for taking the time to share with us today during this busy time. Congratulations on your new role and we'll look forward to seeing what's ahead at Baylor Law.

Jeremy Counseller:
Thank you, Derek,

Derek Smith:
Jeremy Counseller, the Abner V. McCall Chair of Evidence Law, and the incoming Dean of the Baylor Law School, our guest today on Baylor Connections. I'm Derek Smith. A reminder you can hear this and other programs online at baylor.edu/connections, and you can subscribe on iTunes. Thanks for joining us here on Baylor Connections.