Beth Allison Barr

Transcript

Derek Smith:
Hello, and welcome to Baylor Connections, a conversation series with the people shaping our future. Each week we go in depth with Baylor leaders, professors, and more, discussing important topics in higher education, research, and student life. I'm Derek Smith, and today, we are visiting with Beth Allison Barr, author, teacher, historian, and more. She joins us on the program today. Dr. Barr serves as the James Vardaman Endowed Professor of History, and she lives in community with Baylor students as faculty-in-residence of Allen and Dawson halls. A widely published author who wrote the best-selling book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Dr. Barr's research focuses on women and religion in medieval and early modern England, as well as modern evangelicalism and Baptists and a whole lot more. Well, Dr. Barr, thanks so much for coming on the program today. It's great to have you here with us.

Beth Allison Barr:
Oh, thanks for having me.

Derek Smith:
Well, we've got a lot of different directions we could go with the work that you do. You're, again, professor, author, faculty-in-residence, so you wear a lot of hats. What do you enjoy about being all of these things at once? What's challenging about all of these at once?

Beth Allison Barr:
Yes. Well, I love being a faculty-in-residence. This is actually my last semester as a faculty-in-residence, and so it's sort of bittersweet for us. We've been here for six years, but in some ways being a faculty-in-residence I think has pulled all of these different pieces of my life together because it has... First of all, it's pulled in being a professor and living with students and learning how students work. But also my work, my research is reaching the modern evangelical church, especially about women's roles and what I believe that we have gotten wrong about women's roles. And I'm living with the next generation of, not everybody in our residence hall is a Christian or part of a church community, but most of them are, and most of them have grown up with ideas about what women and men should do. And I'm living with them and getting to talk with them about all of these things. And many of them are actually reading my book and coming to me.
So I have this sort of back and forth conversation with these students both as their professor, but also as their fellow church member, getting to talk about these issues facing all of us in the world. So it's really been a beautiful thing, and I am going to miss it.

Derek Smith:
When you're doing your work at scholarship, you described talking with them and interacting with them when you're doing your work, but you're not alongside them. How does having been alongside them impact you when you're not there with them?

Beth Allison Barr:
Oh, gosh. So students shape all of the work that I do. In fact, in The Making of Biblical Womanhood, I mentioned many times when... Conversations that I've had with students that have shaped the way that I teach about these topics. And so I think that's the way living with these students, they shape the way I think about these topics and they also help me... Living with them has helped me know how to communicate with them. And I think that's actually a bit learning how to communicate with people. And if you can communicate with 19 and 20-year-olds, then I think you can communicate with anyone. And so I think that is that really just learning how they learn and what's important to them and knowing how to speak in a way that they can hear me, I think is one of the most valuable things I've learned.

Derek Smith:
Visiting with Beth Allison Barr. And Dr. Barr, if one of those students came up to you, and I gave a little description at the top of the show, and they said, "Hey, what's your research focus? What's your area?" What would you tell them?

Beth Allison Barr:
Yeah, I would say women and religion, late medieval England, 15th century sermons, but also with an eye to the impact that this has on the future and the impact that it has on the modern church and parallels between the modern church and the medieval church. And what learning about the medieval church can tell us about the modern church and vice versa. So always women and religion, but a broad focus from the 15th century to the 21st century.

Derek Smith:
What's unique about getting to pursue things like scholarship here at Baylor?

Beth Allison Barr:
Oh, gosh, Baylor is fantastic. It's sort of funny. I was an undergrad at Baylor and I went to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill for my MA and PhD. And I remember my second year when I was going into the PhD program, my advisor asked me, she said, "If you could be anywhere, if you could teach anywhere in the world, where would you want to teach?" And I said, "Oh, I don't think this is going to happen, but my dream job would be back at Baylor, because of the interaction that professors are able to have with their students as well as all of the opportunities that Baylor provides to allow us to do our job well." And so I am so thankfully, even now with the Vardaman endowed position that I have.
I mean, first of all, I love this position because I was a grader for Ann Miller when I was an undergraduate, and so I was close with the Vardaman family. And so it's such an honor to hold this position, but also it has enabled me to be able to do my research, to be able to take students with me to do research. And it's just been incredible. I can't imagine working at a place that would provide me as much research support as Baylor does.

Derek Smith:
You mentioned the Vardaman and Miller names. What should those of us who don't know them know about them and their impact?

Beth Allison Barr:
Yeah, so I think both Ann Miller and her brother Jim Vardaman are legendarily Baylor professors. Ann Miller is one of the master professors at Baylor, one of the first designated ones in the English department where her voice resonated through the halls of Carroll Science for decades. And Jim Vardaman was a history professor. And in fact, the position that I hold is part of... I teach classes that Jim Vardaman used to teach, which is just... It's so fantastic. And Jim Vardaman and of course his wife Betsy, who has had such a significant impact on Baylor students as well, they helped start a lot of the study abroad programs. So I've also had the privilege of teaching in Baylor in Great Britain, which was a program that was by Jim and Betsy Vardaman, I think back in the '80s, back in the late '80s. So, so much.
So Jim and Betsy Vardaman have done... Their legacy is undergraduate students, especially for Jim in European and British history, and for Betsy in scholarships, and then for both of them in these abroad programs. So amazing opportunities that they have created for Baylor students.

Derek Smith:
Very cool as we visit with Dr. Beth Allison Barr. And Dr. Barr, you've authored numerous books and articles. Did you ever see yourself becoming a best-selling author? Was that something on your plate?

Beth Allison Barr:
I don't think academics ever think that they're going to have a best-selling book. It's really quite crazy. I tell the story, I was a dean in the graduate school, associate dean in the graduate school when I wrote The Making of Biblical Womanhood. And it was January or February before the book came out and I was on some meeting. I to this day don't remember what the meeting was. It was a Zoom meeting. And so I was standing there and my phone beeped and it was a message from NPR asking for an interview. And then at the same moment, I got a text message through Twitter from Eliza Griswold who is a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who writes for the New Yorker. And I received those messages within five minutes of each other asking for interviews about my book. And that was when I walked down to Larry Lyon's office who was a dean of the grad school. And I just sat down in his office and I said, "Larry, I do not know what's going to happen. This is crazy." And so that was the moment that I realized something quite unexpected was happening.

Derek Smith:
So let's go back just a little bit. For you, obviously this ties into your scholarship, but the idea for The Making of Biblical Womanhood, when did that kind of first start to crystallize for you?

Beth Allison Barr:
So what's funny is that The Making of Biblical Womanhood is based on the classes I've been teaching at Baylor since 2008. I teach two sequences of European women's history courses, one from the ancient world to the Central Middle Ages, and then the Central Middle Ages through suffrage. And that's exactly the timeline that The Making of Biblical Womanhood follows.
So in some ways, the concept of The Making of Biblical Womanhood was born in my teaching, and it had been a part of my teaching, as I said, for a very long time. It didn't really occur to me to write the book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood, until an editor reached out to me from Brazos Press and said, "Hey, would you be interested in doing something like this?" But when she asked me that, it was like a light bulb click because I was like, "I probably could do that because this is what I've been teaching." So my students, my former students who read the book, they will often come and they're like, "I remember that conversation," because they were in those classes with me. So it's a lot of fun, but it's my teaching.

Derek Smith:
How would you describe the book to someone who might be interested in reading? How would you describe what it's about? What they'll find?

Beth Allison Barr:
Yeah. I always say that it has the easiest thesis that I've ever written, and it's simply the concept of biblical womanhood that women are called to follow. The leadership of men is not a biblical concept. That it is something that is rooted in history, that it has changed throughout time because it is historical circumstances that shape it not actually a biblical mandate. And that because of this, it is something that is not the best, I think for the church because it silences the voices of women who are called to serve and lead just like men.

Derek Smith:
Obviously you've been teaching this for a long time, as you said. Where are some of the places you found data information, whether you go back to the 15th century or in modern times?

Beth Allison Barr:
Oh gosh, so many places. The heart of the book is probably the fifth chapter, and it's a chapter on gender-inclusive language. And that chapter was born directly in my 15th century research. In fact, one of the very first conference papers I ever gave was during the controversy over the TNIV, which was the gender-inclusive translation of the Bible by the NIV. And it was called... All sorts of people got upset about it because they said it's changing the word of God, you're making... Instead of it saying man, it says men and women now and stuff. And I just remember laughing the first time I saw that because I'd been reading 15th century sermons where they were translating the Bible gender inclusively.
And so I'm like, historically, this is not a product of 1960s feminism because 15th century priests were doing it. And so I think that probably is where I began to think about these modern ideas about women in the church and how they are shaped more by historical currents than actually... It's what we carry to the Bible instead of actually what the Bible is really saying.
As for other places for evidence that I've gone to, if you think about... Part of it is I relied on a lot of wonderful New Testament scholars, including some at Baylor. In fact, one of the arguments that I put out about women in 1 Corinthians 14 where it says, "Women be silent in the churches," et cetera, that is actually from a conversation that I had with Charles Talbert, who was another legendary Baylor professor in the religion department. He's the first one who drew it to my attention that what Paul is doing in that chapter is actually quoting, it's a quote from the Roman world, and that he's rebutting that quote instead. He says, "What? Did the word of God come only through you?" Is what he says after that. And Talbert was like, "What if instead of Paul telling women to be silent, Paul is rebuking men for telling women to be silent?" And I still just remember that conversation. And so I think it just completely shifted because of that epiphany. It was for me with Charles Talbert, as well as the epiphany that I've seen for students over time.

Derek Smith:
This is Baylor Connections. We are visiting with Beth Allison Varr, the James Vardaman Endowed Professor of History, and bestselling author here on the program. And for someone who comes to the book with maybe some preconceived notions of what it's about, what would you tell them?

Beth Allison Barr:
I would tell them that it is not an attack on their belief system. It is simply asking them to think about why they believe what they believe, and what if they're wrong? Would they be willing to entertain the possibility that they are wrong? And if so, let me show them how this idea that they have about women called to follow the leadership of men. I mean, this is so visible in the Baptist world right now with what the Southern Baptist Convention has just done and is continuing to kick out churches with female pastors. This is a very present conversation at Baylor too. Truett Seminary was born in these Baptist battles, and Truett Seminary fully supports women in ministry in every area. And that's it was created, it was founded to provide a place where women and men could flourish together in ministry.
So if somebody came to me, I would say just think about what if you are wrong and what that is meaning for 50% of the church if what you are arguing is not in fact biblical, but actually something that is born in human circumstances. And I actually argue from a theological perspective is rooted in human sin. And so that's I think is the way, is just what if you're wrong?

Derek Smith:
You mentioned visiting with Dr. Talbert talking about Paul as he's speaking. What are some other areas as you were researching that most surprised you or intrigued you? I mean, you've been studying this a long time, but I'm sure there were some things-

Beth Allison Barr:
Oh, yeah.

Derek Smith:
... you discovered that were fascinating.

Beth Allison Barr:
One of the things that my students always really strikes them as funny is that there's a shift in the medieval from the medieval to the early modern world in thinking about women. In the medieval world, women were considered to be the sexual temptresses and the ones that caused men to stance to sin. And if you think about in the modern world today, it is men who are the ones who are the tempters and the ones that are most tempted to sin. And so women are often depicted as being, we have to protect ourselves. That's what purity culture is from. You have to cover up your bodies to protect yourself from the lustful gaze of men. But in the medieval world, it was the opposite. And this is always something my students are always really...
I forget that sometimes as a medievalist because I'm so aware of that in the medieval world, but my students always are like, "Wait, wait, wait, what happened here?" And so it is a perfect moment to step in and show how these ideas we have about women and men are culturally constructed and they shift over time. So I think that's definitely one of them.

Derek Smith:
So Dr. Barr, you think about the book's impact, which is still ongoing. What have you seen that's been meaningful to you and what are your hopes for its continued impact?

Beth Allison Barr:
Oh gosh. The book has done more than I ever, ever thought it would. When I agreed to write it, I thought maybe I can help. Those were the words I thought. I thought maybe I can help. And what I have seen is I have seen it helping more than I ever thought possible. I get letters from women all over the world, men too. People write me in and tell me how they used my book to change their stats, the way their church regarded women and churches have moved from not allowing women to serve in ministry roles, to allowing women to fully serve all the way up through the pastoral leadership. And that's just absolutely incredible. I've also seen where women and men have just written to me and said that the book for them helped, especially women who felt called to serve in ministry but did not ever follow through with that because of these teachings about biblical womanhood.
And those women who have reached out to me, there is always break my heart the most because they're like, "It's too late for me, but I am so glad that women in the future will know that they are called by God too." And that's always... I just love that.
I think maybe the most meaningful story I've ever gotten is from a woman in China who got her English-speaking professor to contact me on every one of my social media devices. And he sent me her letter that she wrote for me, and in the letter she said, "I found my Jesus again, and I wanted you to know that I believe that Jesus is for me and not against me. Thank you." I carry that close to me.

Derek Smith:
Wow, absolutely. Visiting with Dr. Beth Allison Barr. And another question here for you. We talked about the different hats, different roles you wear. I'm curious, your husband is a Baptist minister. How does that role and that being a part of ministry that way for you impact your work?

Beth Allison Barr:
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, actually all of my research... My very first book was The Pastoral Care of Women in Late Medieval England. And I actually open it with a story about my husband. And when he first got into ministry, one of the things that was told to him was that he needed to get a window in his door so that he could counsel women in the same ways as men without anybody having suspicion of what's going on behind the closed door. And that always really, it struck me and I was like, how did clergy deal with this in the past? And that's actually started the inquiry to my dissertation, which was The Pastoral Care of Women in Late Medieval England. How did clergy deal with female parishioners?
So I think maybe coming from this ministry perspective and having been in ministry since 1997, it certainly does flavor the way that I see the world, the way that I see research, the way that I read sermons. Sermons are my primary area of research. And so I'm reading sermons as somebody who has been living with sermons throughout my entire life and also has been watching the creation of sermons by living with a pastor throughout my entire life. And so all of those things I think connect

Derek Smith:
Well, Dr. Barr, as we head into the final few minutes of the program, I want to shift gears again a little bit to your role as a faculty-in-residence, then find out what's coming up next for you in your research. But I'm curious and probably a lot of people are, integrating your family life into the life of a thriving residence hall on campus. What's that look like for you and the family?

Beth Allison Barr:
Oh gosh, it's been a lot of fun. There certainly has been challenges. Our son was 13 when we moved in and our daughter was eight. So we raised our son through the most dramatic teenage years in residence hall, and that was certainly interesting. It was also fun. There was one year actually that my son, he was never as visible with the students as my daughter was. My daughter, she was out there all the time, especially when we first moved in. But there was a year actually that the students in lead had sort of a Steven sighting bingo card because they saw him so rarely so they would have... If you saw Steven, it was a Steven sighting. It was really kind of funny how they did that.

Derek Smith:
That's right.

Beth Allison Barr:
There was one student who told me that she didn't believe he existed because she just never saw him because he was always at... You know teenagers. He was always at school, he was always in tennis, et cetera.
But so it's been a lot of fun. It's also, as I said, our family, luckily because we came from youth ministry, we already were sort of living in the public eye and doing life with teenagers. And so moving into a residence hall is similar to that, doing life with teenagers. And we just sort of continued that on. And my daughter, she grew up with a class that all the way from their freshman year to their senior year. And I think the hardest thing for her when they graduated was when she actually started decreasing her visibility. I mean it really, because those were the kids that she had lived with for four years, and it was just amazing to see the impact that they had on her life. And I'm so grateful that she will always have that.

Derek Smith:
You mentioned this is your last year you're doing this. What are you going to miss the most, do you think?

Beth Allison Barr:
Just being with the students. I mean, it's just fun. They know I'm a professor, but I'm mostly not... Some of the students are in my classes, but for most of them, I'm just a professor who they can talk to about anything. I have no power over their grades or anything like that. So there's a lot of freedom I think that I have in talking with the students and I learn so much from them. I actually will go out when I'm trying out a new assignment or wanting to try out something, I'll ask them and they'll tell me exactly what they think or what they think I should put in my syllabus. And I'm going to miss that because it's been really helpful to get that direct... I have a direct line to the students that I teach, and that's just been amazing.

Derek Smith:
That's great. Well, my final question for you. I know is we're recording this interview, you are carving out some time because you've been working on a manuscript. What's next for you?

Beth Allison Barr:
Yeah. So my next book, which comes out a year from now, is called Becoming the Pastor's Wife. And it's a continuation of The Making of Biblical Womanhood going more in depth to some pieces that I didn't get to explore in The Making of Biblical Womanhood, namely women's ordination and what happened to women's ordination. And my thesis in The Making of Biblical Womanhood is that the decline of women's ordination is connected to the rise of the pastor's wife role. And being a pastor's wife myself, this has also been very interesting to me. It's also been very interesting because I've done the bulk of the modern research in the Southern Baptist Archives. So I've been doing this at the same time that the Southern Baptist Church has been having this very hard turn pushing women out of all leadership roles. And so it's been really fascinating doing this research during this very present moment where this is such a live question.

Derek Smith:
Well, Dr. Barr, really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for joining us on the program.

Beth Allison Barr:
Thanks. It's been fun.

Derek Smith:
Beth Allison Barr, the James Vardaman Endowed Professor of History, our guest today on Baylor Connections. I'm Derek Smith. Reminder, you can hear this and other programs online at connections.web.baylor.edu, and you can subscribe to the program on iTunes. Thanks for joining us here on Baylor Connections.