Jon Eckert

Jon Eckert joined the Baylor faculty in 2019 as the Lynda and Robert Copple Endowed Chair in Christian School Leadership. In this Baylor Connections, he examines the ways Baylor can help Christians in education, both in faith-based and non-faith-based school contexts. A longtime teacher and professor who served in the U.S. Department of Education during the Bush and Obama administrations, Eckert shares foundational values in education and casts a vision for future growth in the Center for Christians in Education.
Transcript
DEREK SMITH:
Hello and welcome to Baylor Connections, a conversation series with the people shaping our future. Each week we go in depth with Baylor leaders, professors, and more discussing important topics in higher education, research and student life. I'm Derek Smith and our guest today is Jon Eckert. Dr Eckert serves as Professor of Educational Leadership and the Lynda and Robert Copple Endowed Chair in Christian school leadership in the Baylor School of Education. He joined the Baylor faculty this year and brings a vast array of experience to his new role. Eckert taught and coached intermediate and middle school students outside of Chicago and Nashville for 12 years. After completing his doctorate at Vanderbilt in 2008 he was selected as a teaching ambassador fellow at the US department of education where he worked in both the Bush and Obama administrations on teaching quality issues. For the past 10 years he's prepared teachers at Wheaton College. Eckert has conducted research for the US Department of Education, the Carnegie Foundation, The National Institute for Excellence in Teaching and more. Writing and working on grants of over $300 million. He's also the author of two books and a new faculty member and new Texan. And Dr Eckert, thanks so much for joining us. It's great to have you here on the program.
JON ECKERT:
Thanks for having me, Derek.
DEREK SMITH:
So first few months here in Texas, first few months here at Baylor, what stood out to you during this first semester and your time here?
JON ECKERT:
Well, it's hard not to say the football team being undefeated, but the homecoming parade has been amazing. The students had been amazing. I've been working with an undergraduate cohort of leadership minor students in their capstone, and so they've been a real blessing. In fact, this Friday they're coming over for a game night. They'd been over for dinner. They've been a blessing to our family as well as in the classroom. So, experienced many of the Baylor experiences that are to be had and many more that we're looking forward to.
DEREK SMITH:
What is the center for Christian Education? So what does it play in that broader School of Education piece here?
JON ECKERT:
So we're here to prepare Christians in school leadership, wherever the Lord's called people to. So public schools, private schools. Baylor's been doing this for a hundred years through the school of ed. This is the hundred year anniversary of the School of Education. So this allows us to go explicitly in that unambiguously Christian way at leaders wherever they want to serve. And this is a great time to be investing in that. And the Copples' gift has made that possible. Because we spend $680 billion a year in this country on K through 12 public education. There are 56.6 million kids in school this year. And so for Baylor to take a position where we're going to go deeper on serving the leaders that serve those kids, there's never been a better time to do it. On top of that, in education right now, we know more about how people learn. We have more tools for supporting that and we have more ways to deliver education than we ever have. So the fact that Baylor is taking this step through the center and through this gift in the School of Ed is an amazing opportunity.
DEREK SMITH:
As we talk more about that. Before we do we'll get to know you a little bit better. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? You know, was the teaching bug something you always had at a young age and when did you start making that transition, some of those broader issues?
JON ECKERT:
So there's this great quote from Frederick Buechner that, "Vocation is where our deep hunger in the world's, where our deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet." And this is such a powerful reminder to me of what I get to do. I get to do meaningful work every day. And I've been in education now 24 years. And I wouldn't say that it started really young. I spent my last two years of high school in West Virginia. Those were formative times where, you know, we realize how valuable a good education can be. And so I went to Wheaton College on a scholarship, was a federal scholarship that required you to go into teaching or you paid it back. And so when I went to Wheaton I knew that's what I was going to be doing. And it has been such a blessing to be with students that are transformational in the way they interact with you and the time that you learn from them as a teacher, as much as they learn from you, if not more. And so I have just been blessed to be able to do this work. But that was probably the real draw was that scholarship that allowed me to go to school and then stay in education after that time. Because I had to teach for six years after graduating. And that was a great start for me.
DEREK SMITH:
In teaching, whether it's in the classroom or interacting with students or even in some administrative type roles, thinking about broader issues. What aspects of that were most formative to you or just most spoke to you about making you want to go further?
JON ECKERT:
So, you realize how much a difference teachers make when you have those great teachers and so you want to emulate those. And then as you get further into the system you see how hard it is sometimes to do that work that you want to do. And so I had to move actually midway through seventh grade and was miserable moving in January of your seventh grade year-
DEREK SMITH:
Middle school, that's tough.
JON ECKERT:
Is not desirable. And so when I went into teaching I said, "I'm not ever going to go back to middle school." And I think that's why a lot of people don't go into teaching. They don't necessarily have the best recollections of school and so they don't want to go back in. But, as I taught, I taught for eight years and the Lord opened some doors when I went to Vanderbilt to teach middle school science. And I took it as a challenge that I could maybe make this a little bit better for kids at a time when it's very unstable, hormones are raging and every day feels like it's a very different day. And so, that experience, which was not necessarily positive as a student, the teachers that I had that were solid, stable characters were the people that drew me back in as a teacher when I actually got to the point where I could teach.
DEREK SMITH:
What drew you to Vanderbilt and more specifically to pursue that doctorate education, to think about some of those bigger issues?
JON ECKERT:
So the program I went through was Leadership, Policy and Organization. And I always found it fascinating to see how organizations work and how people work within those systems. And so it was an opportunity. At the time, Baylor was the number two school of ed in the country. It was a time to go where the best professors in the country on this were doing great research. And were digging deeper into how those organizations and policies and leadership could really support effective change. And so I was curious about that. Having taught for at that point 9 years, it was just, it was an opportunity to learn from great people who are doing this work and in a cohort of people that were coming from all over the country. So I was working with some unbelievable leaders from around the country who were going through the doctoral program at the same time I was. And so again, that was another tremendous blessing.
DEREK SMITH:
Visiting with Dr Jon Eckert, talking education here on Baylor Connections. And you talk about just better teaching and you know, improving that experience for the students, but as you've moved forward with that, are there some questions that drive you that you're looking for those solutions for?
JON ECKERT:
Yeah, so really what I've been seeking since I went into education is how we walk alongside students to help them flourish and become who they were created to be. And that can sound like a platitude, but when you actually believe children are made in the image of God and you are helping to push them in directions that make them more of what they can be, that's powerful. And then as I've gone into the leadership end, the questions have been, "How do teachers and administrators walk together in the way they support students in that goal?" And so that's been a true privilege to be able to do that. And they're hard questions. It's not an easy question because every kid is made differently. But it makes teaching infinitely interesting and leadership never boring.
DEREK SMITH:
What are some of those, you know, you mentioned every student's different. What are some of those challenges as you move towards answering those questions? Maybe obstacles or just tough spots to navigate you would like to help teachers move around.
JON ECKERT:
It really became clear to me at the US Department of Ed when you're at this 30,000 foot view of education, is how do you put policies in place that truly support those great educators working with kids so that they can meet those kids' needs? Because every educator is working with anywhere from 20 to 200 kids a day, if you're in a high school, comprehensive high school and kids are rotating through. It's really challenging to meet their individual needs, both to push the kids that can excel far beyond what we can imagine. And then other kids who struggle and who may have not had a chance to be ready to do the work that they've entered into your class to do. So to me the policy play always has to be to support those teachers who are doing that good work with administrators who understand the complexity of it and give them the tools they need to do that work. That's an easy answer, it's a 30 second soundbite, but to actually put those resources in place where they're most needed is a much more challenging and always interesting question.
DEREK SMITH:
We mentioned you worked with, worked under both administrations for a George W. Bush and Barack Obama during your time there. What was your experience at the Department of Education like more broadly? What are some things maybe you take from that bit to Wheaton and now to Baylor?
JON ECKERT:
When I went into the Bush administration, we were being brought in to connect policy and practice better. So they brought five teachers from around the country. It was an application process. They had thousands, over a thousand teachers apply for this. And the idea was that the department realized they're pretty far removed from the classroom and so they wanted five teachers there full-time. They put, left 20 in their classrooms. So the 25 of us came in at the end of the Bush administration. And then the Obama administration came in and it was fascinating to see the way they approached problems. Both administrations wanted to do things that made things better for students, but how you do that from a federal perspective is really challenging. And so on top of that, because we hit at the time of the recession, there was the stimulus package that went out. So my last six months there I'd been pulled out of the offices of Elementary and Secondary ed, put into the office of the Secretary. Because I'd run into the Stanford Dean of the ed school who I met in the elevator and I asked him about an article that he'd written and within two minutes he said, "You need to come up and work with us." And I was responsible for helping get $100 billion out as part of the stimulus package, so that schools could continue to function and the money could be spent and stimulate the economy. And so seeing that scale of action was just incredible. But then also questioning what difference does it make? Because you couldn't see the kids who are being served by those dollars. And so selfishly, at the end of that time I was like, "I've got to get back closer to classrooms." Because that was meaningful work, but it didn't have the return that you get in that relationship you have between teachers and students and leaders and teachers that are pushing this work forward in meaningful ways.
DEREK SMITH:
What does that responsibility like when you're stewarding that kind of investment?
JON ECKERT:
Well, I looked around and I said, "What am I doing here? Am I qualified to do this?" But I realized I had 12 years in schools, I had a doctorate from a good institution in Leadership Policy and Organization and I was like, "Well, I guess it's me. I guess we need to do it." But there were definitely times where I felt inadequate, but again, our inadequacy is a place where the Lord can definitely use us in ways that we can't imagine. So I was definitely dependent on him in multiple instances through that, but it was a great experience. Great colleagues, really appreciated my time and the teachers that were there with me were a huge blessing and continue to be now.
DEREK SMITH:
This is Baylor Connections. We are visiting with Dr Jon Eckert, Professor of Educational Leadership and the Lynda and Robert Copple Endowed Chair in Christian School Leadership. And I think you've already touched on this somewhat, but as we talk more about what you're doing here at Baylor, I won't ask you more specifically, those foundational values for you that you bring into this Copple chair role.
JON ECKERT:
The reason I'm here at Baylor is partly because of what Illuminate says that really resonated for me. I mean there are two pillars that we hit very directly. So the campaign is built around two of them, which are, one is that it's unambiguously Christian. And second that we're going to develop research and scholars that are going to take us to a research one level. And so that is extremely appealing to me that we can be unambiguously Christian in what we're doing as we support leaders and wherever the Lord takes them. And I actually had been reading just, I guess it was last week, Ephesians 5:13 says this, "Everything exposed by the light becomes visible and everything that is illuminated becomes light." Being able to walk alongside leaders who are that light for students and for other colleagues is a powerful call. And that's what I want to do. I want to walk alongside leaders as they do this work. And so I write a lot about catalytic leaders. I was a science teacher so the science ideas come through a lot. And we misuse the term catalyst a lot of times because when you think of catalytic leaders we think of someone who's out front and everybody else is leading, is following behind. When really a catalyst is something that speeds up a reaction and it doesn't get used up in the reaction. So it comes alongside to drive that change. And I think Baylor is an ideal place to do that work. Partly because it's situated in Texas. Texas is still very receptive to innovation and to faith. And so I think there's no better place to do that. And then Baylor is in this moment where there's a lot of energy around doing this kind of work where we are giving light and that's just reflecting the light of the creator to those around us, wherever we're called to serve.
DEREK SMITH:
What are some, some of the biggest areas of opportunity that you see where Baylor can speak into or maybe biggest areas of need? Biggest challenges, could go any number of directions.
JON ECKERT:
Yeah. Well, President Livingstone is always saying that the world needs a Baylor. And I would go even further that the world needs leaders that are prepared through Baylor to be those catalysts that I described that ground their leadership in moral and ethical considerations. That are grounded in their faith. Because that's the kind of resource you need to have a thriving democracy, to have a society that values character over personality, that values things that really matter and are substantive. And so whether it's civics education or being great scientists or great thinkers, there's no better basis for that than the kind of moral and ethical underpinnings that Christians should have when they are leading and walking alongside others and helping them flourish and do what they are called to do.
DEREK SMITH:
Are there challenges to being that voice in the marketplace or what are some of the opportunities there whether to work around or to speak into?
JON ECKERT:
I think this is a tremendous opportunity for Baylor. Because I think there's a real hunger for that kind of leadership. I think it's clear that it's needed now. Obviously some people would not go all in on the Christian mission piece if they have a different faith background. But this isn't about proselytizing students. This is about representing Christ by being excellent in what you do. So if your message is clear that we are here to help you as a leader, help you as a student, help you as a teacher, be all that you are to be. That's a very positive message that I don't think there's resistance to, but there has to be enough willingness to understand and relate to get past that perceived barrier, which I don't think is real. But I think this is a true opportunity for Baylor to be a real Christian research one university. And lead in education because education is the profession that makes all others possible. So what a great place to lead in this way and in a meaningful time like this.
DEREK SMITH:
You know, certainly when you talk about Christian school leadership more specifically from schools that do have religious affiliations, are there needs that are different when you think more about those faith based institutions or is it in a lot of ways the same?
JON ECKERT:
No, I think absolutely there are different challenges. Every context, every school is different. I think some of the challenges for Christian schools that are real is, their tuition-driven. You have to make a case that you should come to this school which will cost you additional dollars even though your tax dollars are going for the public school down the street. That's real. I think some of the pressures from society on schools to conform to different ways of doing things, things that may be out of traditional values that this school was founded. And I think the opportunity to prepare students online, through virtual classrooms, those are all real challenges that both public and private schools face. But Christian school leaders can be explicit in what their mission is and they can sell something that's different. And I think that's what Baylor university can do as well. So I don't think it's shying away from that. I think it's leaning into it and seeing where you can lead in ways that possibly public schools can't because I think there's opportunity there.
DEREK SMITH:
Visiting with Dr Jon Eckert, Copple Endowed Chair in Christian School Leadership. And as we talk about the Center for Christian Education, the different programs that come under the Copple Chair purview. What are some of those programs and resources more specifically that you oversee and how do those work?
JON ECKERT:
Yeah, so I'm partnering, Matt Thomas is the executive director of the center, and so he was hired a year and a half ago, and so he's been doing a lot of great work already. Think of it as a pyramid, basically. There are academies that we will offer every summer that'll draw, this next summer we'll have 250 Christian school leaders on campus, so that's the base of the pyramid. They're going to get two and a half days to really work on improving the work they're doing in their schools. Then we'll have institutes. That's the next layer up. The institutes can be team-based, where you bring your team back to campus three times over the course of the year to work on a shared problem of practice. All my research is around collective leadership and the way you drive work together toward improvement goals. So my books and publications are all around that, so it builds on that piece. There will also be individual institutes, so if you have a development director, an admissions director or division heads, they can come back for one day, deep dives into areas that serve them well. The next level up is these collective leadership improvement communities. I get to work with the Carnegie Foundation, which is bringing improvement science into schools. And so we're bringing that to Christian schools, particularly. How do they work together to drive that progress? So I've already got schools in Texas banded together. They've signed three year contracts where they commit to each other. We meet monthly, either virtually or face to face, to do improvement work with them. So that's the next layer. Then we have the Masters in School Leadership. It'll be a two track Masters that will serve public school educators in Texas that need a Texas licensure. And it will also have a component where if you're just interested in school leadership and don't need the licensure, you can do that. So that can be people from out of state or private Christian school leaders that don't need that piece. And then the final piece at the top of the pyramid will be the PhD in Educational Leadership, which will let people take a deep dive into research and into leadership that'll transform schools. So those are the pieces that will be there. So academies, institutes, leadership improvement communities, Masters, and then PhD. So that's a mouthful.
DEREK SMITH:
Oh yeah, it's a pretty robust offering.
JON ECKERT:
Yes, we're nothing if not ambitious. So there you go.
DEREK SMITH:
Well you're working with professionals. You mentioned a number of contexts. You talked at the top of the show about working with Baylor students. What are those opportunities for Baylor students look like, whether it's interacting with other professionals and certainly with you and your fellow teachers?
JON ECKERT:
So the students are what this is all about. So the undergrad students I'm working with right now are phenomenal. The graduate students we'll bring in, will be emerging leaders or established leaders in the field that are going to change the way we do education. And so, our work is all about coming alongside them, doing good research, preparing them to do good research, but also for them to improve their practice as leaders.
DEREK SMITH:
Visiting with Dr Jon Eckert and time's moving fast. We're heading into the final couple of minutes of the program and I've mentioned a couple of times your title, the Lynda and Robert Copple Endowed Chair in Christian School Leadership. I think people, we hear those terms like "Endowed Chair" but maybe a lot of people outside of education, that's not something we spend a lot of time thinking about. What is, what does the fact that this was an endowed position mean to you in coming down here and that investment by the Copples mean for this going forward?
JON ECKERT:
The Copples are such a great example of this. First Lynda was a world-class educator who was a two time Teacher of the Year in her district. Robert is a world class business leader and he has been very successful and is recognized all over for his ability. And they saw a need in Christian schools and in schools in general for Christian leadership. And so their faith and that, led them to give a $2.5 million gift to make this possible. So an endowed chair, all that means is my salary is paid out of the interest on that gift. So that gift will ripple out for years because of what they've done. And so it allows me to do the research and do the support that Baylor wasn't doing before. I'm a new position that didn't exist. And so that's where that endowment comes in and is so valuable. So the generous donors that are participating and give light, they're a tremendous value. I'm in essence, the physical embodiment of that gift. And the leaders that I serve will go out and serve students and make that gift ripple out in ways that we can't even imagine.
DEREK SMITH:
Well, that's great. And finally as we talk about, you mentioned research and another area that we could probably spend a lot of time on, but as you've talked about that idea of a Christian research university Illuminate. Are there any research priorities that are front and center on your plate right now?
JON ECKERT:
So multiple research projects going on right now. I have two grants in process. Like I mentioned, I'm working with the Carnegie Foundation on bringing Improvement Science in. We have cohorts in North Carolina, South Carolina and Texas where we're studying how they're improving schools. So we're studying both the process and the results. And so there's no lack of ambition for what these leaders want to do and we're just trying to give them the tools and the research to be able to do that. So it's mixed methods research, so quantitative and qualitative, that lets us see what's changing and then why it's changing.
DEREK SMITH:
Well, very exciting. We'll look forward to talking to you maybe more about that as some of these projects you get deeper into those and we can can share those with the Baylor family. Dr Jon Eckert. Thank you very much for joining us.
JON ECKERT:
Thank you for having me, Derek.
DEREK SMITH:
Great to visit with you here. Thanks for coming in on the program today. This is Baylor Connections. I'm Derek Smith. A reminder, you can hear this and other programs online at baylor.edu/connections. Thanks for joining us here on Baylor Connections.